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0793
This is the 3rd debate between Totty and Grider . Held in the new 1100 seat auditorium of the Garfield Heights church in Indianapolis, Dec. 3-4, 1964.
This church, where bro. Totty has served as minister for more than 27 years, stood solidly behind his as furnished most of the crowd. But Grider could not get a church in Indianapolis to endorse him for the debate.;
Grider affirmed: "The Bible teaches that it is a sin for the church to take money from the treasury to buy food for hungry destitute children, and those who do so will go to hell." This is the proposition that has proved to be embarrassing to the anti-orphan home faction. Grider's brethren gave him a hard time for signing this proposition and one of them is pressing Grider for a debate.
Grider argued that Jam. 1:27 is the only passage in th Bible concerning the care of the fatherless; and since he said that passage is not to the church, that there is now command, example or necessary inference for the church to take care of children, he still admitted the church could take care of children as long as the money went to a saint and he (the saint) could then care for "any child." Here is Grider's exact statement: "We both agree that money can be taken from the church treasury to help children, but we disagree on how the money gets to the children." Totty countered by saying the old Pharisees in all their glory could not strain at gnats as Grider did. Grider's indirect method of helping children does not rule the fact that many from the church treasury would still be helping them, although his proposition stated that all who did such would go to hell.
According to Grider it would be scriptural to take money of out the church treasury for food for the preacher's lawn, but a sin to but baby food. Totty asked: "Which is more important to God, grass or babies." Totty also chided Grider for putting us in the same class as "infidels, adulterers, false teachers and idolaters."
The Garfield Heights church has a telephone in the lobby, which costs the church 5¢ per call. Grider would not admit that the elders could scripturally call an ambulance for an injured child on it, if that child was not a saint. Totty said that if they could not get to another phone, they would have to let the child die because according to Grider it would be a sin for the to make the call. No one who called himself a member of the Lord's church ever taught such a foolish doctrine until recent years.
Grider was definitely on faulty ground when Totty asked him: "Are babies children of God or children of the devil?" Grider answered: "Neither." If babies are neither, then they are in a predicament, belonging to neither God nor the devil. "To whom do they belong" was never answered by Grider. Totty pointed out that babies are children of God, created perfect (Ezek. 28:15) and that every baby that has died has gone to heaven. Destitute children, therefore, deserve the help of the church.
A good spirit prevailed during this debate and large attendance each night. This was a good debate, a very significant victory for the truth; and bro. Totty was at his best. He is one of our best debaters, and no church will make a mistake if they call him for discussion. He has fought the anti-orphan hobby for 27 years in the city of Indianapolis, the headquarters of Sommerism. Bro. admitted he had changed his position on these issues, and stated he would probably change more.
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W. L. Totty vs A. C. Grider (Orphan Home Question)
January 14, 1965
Indianapolis, Indiana
(Kenneth W. Franklin)
January 14, 1965
Indianapolis, Indiana
(Kenneth W. Franklin)
This is the 3rd debate between Totty and Grider . Held in the new 1100 seat auditorium of the Garfield Heights church in Indianapolis, Dec. 3-4, 1964.
This church, where bro. Totty has served as minister for more than 27 years, stood solidly behind his as furnished most of the crowd. But Grider could not get a church in Indianapolis to endorse him for the debate.;
Grider affirmed: "The Bible teaches that it is a sin for the church to take money from the treasury to buy food for hungry destitute children, and those who do so will go to hell." This is the proposition that has proved to be embarrassing to the anti-orphan home faction. Grider's brethren gave him a hard time for signing this proposition and one of them is pressing Grider for a debate.
Grider argued that Jam. 1:27 is the only passage in th Bible concerning the care of the fatherless; and since he said that passage is not to the church, that there is now command, example or necessary inference for the church to take care of children, he still admitted the church could take care of children as long as the money went to a saint and he (the saint) could then care for "any child." Here is Grider's exact statement: "We both agree that money can be taken from the church treasury to help children, but we disagree on how the money gets to the children." Totty countered by saying the old Pharisees in all their glory could not strain at gnats as Grider did. Grider's indirect method of helping children does not rule the fact that many from the church treasury would still be helping them, although his proposition stated that all who did such would go to hell.
According to Grider it would be scriptural to take money of out the church treasury for food for the preacher's lawn, but a sin to but baby food. Totty asked: "Which is more important to God, grass or babies." Totty also chided Grider for putting us in the same class as "infidels, adulterers, false teachers and idolaters."
The Garfield Heights church has a telephone in the lobby, which costs the church 5¢ per call. Grider would not admit that the elders could scripturally call an ambulance for an injured child on it, if that child was not a saint. Totty said that if they could not get to another phone, they would have to let the child die because according to Grider it would be a sin for the to make the call. No one who called himself a member of the Lord's church ever taught such a foolish doctrine until recent years.
Grider was definitely on faulty ground when Totty asked him: "Are babies children of God or children of the devil?" Grider answered: "Neither." If babies are neither, then they are in a predicament, belonging to neither God nor the devil. "To whom do they belong" was never answered by Grider. Totty pointed out that babies are children of God, created perfect (Ezek. 28:15) and that every baby that has died has gone to heaven. Destitute children, therefore, deserve the help of the church.
A good spirit prevailed during this debate and large attendance each night. This was a good debate, a very significant victory for the truth; and bro. Totty was at his best. He is one of our best debaters, and no church will make a mistake if they call him for discussion. He has fought the anti-orphan hobby for 27 years in the city of Indianapolis, the headquarters of Sommerism. Bro. admitted he had changed his position on these issues, and stated he would probably change more.
VIEW NEXT REPORT >>
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